Service Electric QAM

[gibroni]

What can we get in HD with a QAM tuner without buying the HD package from Service Electric. I have an HTPC with a QAM tuner and I'm thinking about just getting basic cable since WBRE and WYOU decided to revert to VHF.

[KyL416]

Last I heard Service Electric just has locals in clear QAM, they encrypt the rest because people who just subscribe to locals or analog expanded basic would be able to get extra channels without paying by using a QAM tuner, which is becoming more and more common. Some providers also have Music Choice in the clear too, not sure if Service Electric is one of them.

Also, there's nothing wrong with VHF-Hi DTV, the problem is people who are unaware of the need to and/or flat out refuse to upgrade their antennas. Provided you have VHF/UHF combo antenna, WBRE and WYOU have the strongest signal readings in the market on DTV tuners. Depending on where you are in relation to Penobscot, you can even just buy a VHF/UHF combiner and attach a cheap pair of rabbit ears to it (I'm literally using a pair of rabbit ears I got 10 years ago from a dollar store), and you'll still get WBRE/WYOU stronger than the signals coming from an outdoor UHF antenna. (VHF takes a lot less power to cover a given distance than UHF). It also didn't help that for ages UHF only antennas were being marketed across the country as "HDTV antennas", even though since the start of the transition it was already known that nearly every market will have at least one station either already in VHF or going back to VHF after the transition is over.

[gibroni]

Unfortunately I'm down low in Lee Park behind the high rise. For whatever reason WNEP and WYOU are the weakest for me. I am using a DB4 for UHF and the Terk HD antenna (forget the model. It's not the powered model. I did buy a basic set of rabbit ears to couple to my DBA. I'm waiting to mount it on the roof.

[Jed]

Originally Posted by gibroni

Unfortunately I'm down low in Lee Park behind the high rise. For whatever reason WNEP and WYOU are the weakest for me. I am using a DB4 for UHF and the Terk HD antenna (forget the model. It's not the powered model. I did buy a basic set of rabbit ears to couple to my DBA. I'm waiting to mount it on the roof.

If you have the SE division in Wikes Barre or Mahanoy City, you will have to suscribe to expanded basic to get the HD Broadcast channels in the clear. The HD broadcast channels are found in the physical RF channel range of 110 to 118. The music choice channels and the digital copies of the broadcast channels are also in the clear.
The price for expanded basic is $60.70/month and I think it still includes 1 free SD digital cable box for free. This will also give you access to VOD, which started in december 2009.
Also the HD channels are broadcast as SE recieves them in their full HD glory. No additional compression or multiplexing is used.

Analog basic ($19.99/month) only covers from 54MHz to 216 MHz. SE puts a filter at the tap to filter out any frequencies above 216MHz. The HD channels are in the 678MHz to 816MHz range.
I figure once SE removes their analog lineup then they will move the HD locals to the 54MHz to 216MHz range, but I don't know when this will happen as there is a lot of analog basic and expanded basic subscribers that don't have a digital or HD tv set yet.

The channels for analog basic in order from 54MHz to 216Mhz are:
2,3,4,1,5,6,95,96,97,98,99,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21 ,22,7,8,9,10,11,12,13.
NOTE: Channel 1 is only 4MHz in size the rest is 6MHz in size.
NOTE: Channels 95,96,97 are the same frequencies as the FM radio band. So there is usually no tv channels put in this range because of ingress (noise) getting into these channels because of the strength of local FM radio stations.
Ingress will mainly occur in the customers home because of the use of bad, poor quality, or improper installation of wiring, F connectors, splitters, and cable amps.

[n2rj]

Yep they had a lot of stuff in the clear last year but encrypted everything except locals and QVC in late November or early December.

Oh well doesn't really bother me as I have a CableCARD tuner in my media center.

[Jed]

Originally Posted by n2rj

Yep they had a lot of stuff in the clear last year but encrypted everything except locals and QVC in late November or early December.

Oh well doesn't really bother me as I have a CableCARD tuner in my media center.

I have two cable cards in both of my tvs so I don't know how many HD channels are in the clear in the Mahanoy division.

I built my computer and I have a tv tuner that does analog, 8 vsb, and qam but I only can get analog with the cable hooked to it because microsoft won't give me the 2008 WMC tv update for Vista. They tell me I either have to get it from the OEM manufacturer of my computer, which is me, or upgrade to windows 7. I am not going through all the BS that I had with windows 7 that I had with Vista.
I even installed a new graphics card, nvidia gt 210, which worked extremely well until I opened media center and I ended up getting a BSOD. I had to put my old graphics card back in because Vista MC can not deal with any digital cable tv applications.

[n2rj]

To me, Windows 7 is worth it but you can actually do CableCARD in a non-OEM Vista PC with a hack.

Anyway it almost seems as though the mad rush of everyone buying cheap plasma TVs from walmart on or after black friday might have spooked SE Cable, and they locked up everything except locals, lol.

I hope they don't do like Cablevision and apply for a waiver from the FCC to encrypt locals, but I don't think they'll get it as Cablevision got theirs because of rampant theft of service in the Bronx. Out here they can come and disconnect the cable physically quite easily.

Anyway, I put additional Clear QAM tuners in my media center so I can record all of primetime HD on the big four and watch at my leisure. I also have 2x ATI CableCARD tuners to record anything from the encrypted channels. When Ceton releases their 4 tuner MOCUR in May I'm building a new box and will get an M card for it. I'll probably add a couple of Clear QAM tuners to record locals too.

My current Media Center is my desktop PC with a HP pavilion elite and Core i7, 8 GB of RAM and the whole deal...

One question though, they're dropping some analog here, about three channels I think. Does this mean more HD is imminent? Are they doing the same in Mahanoy City or Wilkes-Barre?

[Jed]

Originally Posted by n2rj

To me, Windows 7 is worth it but you can actually do CableCARD in a non-OEM Vista PC with a hack.

Anyway it almost seems as though the mad rush of everyone buying cheap plasma TVs from walmart on or after black friday might have spooked SE Cable, and they locked up everything except locals, lol.

I hope they don't do like Cablevision and apply for a waiver from the FCC to encrypt locals, but I don't think they'll get it as Cablevision got theirs because of rampant theft of service in the Bronx. Out here they can come and disconnect the cable physically quite easily.

Anyway, I put additional Clear QAM tuners in my media center so I can record all of primetime HD on the big four and watch at my leisure. I also have 2x ATI CableCARD tuners to record anything from the encrypted channels. When Ceton releases their 4 tuner MOCUR in May I'm building a new box and will get an M card for it. I'll probably add a couple of Clear QAM tuners to record locals too.

My current Media Center is my desktop PC with a HP pavilion elite and Core i7, 8 GB of RAM and the whole deal...

One question though, they're dropping some analog here, about three channels I think. Does this mean more HD is imminent? Are they doing the same in Mahanoy City or Wilkes-Barre?

One of the big things that I don't like about windows 7 is there is no email program. I use the email program pretty heavy and it will be to much of a pain to change my mail accounts to something else.
Second, I really don't have the room at my desk for any auxillary equipment.

As for the encrypting the locals, all cable companies must carry the local stations in analog on a basic lineup until 2012, then they must carry the locals in SD digital in a basic lineup. The law does not cover HD locals because high definition is a premium service, so they can scramble the HD locals anytime they want. Remember the transition to digital broadcasting was only for standard definition only.
It also depends on any retransmision agreements that the cable company has with the local affiliates as where their channels will be and if the HD should be extra or included in a basic package.
http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-th...tv-until-2012/
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2...until-2012.ars

Right now there is no activity with removing any analog channels in my division. It is possible that they are making room for VOD or the telephone if you don't have it yet. I do hope it is more HD though.

[n2rj]

Originally Posted by Jed

One of the big things that I don't like about windows 7 is there is no email program. I use the email program pretty heavy and it will be to much of a pain to change my mail accounts to something else.

It's now available as a separate download (Windows Live Essentials).

Second, I really don't have the room at my desk for any auxillary equipment.

Both of my tuners are internal, and the new ones coming out are internal. SiliconDust is also releasing a CableCARD HD Home Run soon which you can stick in your basement or similar.

As for the encrypting the locals, all cable companies must carry the local stations in analog on a basic lineup until 2012, then they must carry the locals in SD digital in a basic lineup.

Not quite. They must carry the locals in analog only if they have any other analog. If they are "all digital" then they can carry them in digital only, downconvert to SD and supply equipment cheap/free. Comcast is supplying DTAs and Verizon gave DCT 700s to customers. Verizon is all digital now (which is why they can have 130 HD channels) and Comcast is all digital in many of its markets. I think Service Electric Cablevision is supplying DTAs for analog customers because they might be crushing analog soon. Hopefully our SE can do the same. Maybe. We can hope.

The law does not cover HD locals because high definition is a premium service, so they can scramble the HD locals anytime they want. Remember the transition to digital broadcasting was only for standard definition only.
It also depends on any retransmision agreements that the cable company has with the local affiliates as where their channels will be and if the HD should be extra or included in a basic package.

The FCC said that "must carry" signals have to be in the clear, in HD. This was in a 2007 NPRM. It's not clear whether this applies to all locals , however, since some stations elect retransmission consent, and may in fact be encryptable. But as a general rule cable providers pass locals with no encryption, just to play it safe. This is a good thing. QVC is, well, QVC and they want as many eyeballs as possible.

Right now there is no activity with removing any analog channels in my division. It is possible that they are making room for VOD or the telephone if you don't have it yet. I do hope it is more HD though.

We got VOD and phone too. VOD has been around since November or so but launched officially last month. Some people I know have had return issues which caused VOD not to work though. I also had a problem on one of my outlets which is now fixed. The VOD system is decent and has quite a bit of free programming. I hope eventually we can get Tru2Way to enjoy it on third party equipment such as TiVo or media center.

I am hoping it is more HD myself though, but I have most of what I need.

[n2rj]

This is what they sent in my last cable bill and also what they are playing on channel 10 from time to time:

Effective March 15, 2010 these channels will be repositioned:

CNN HEADLINE NEWS FROM 27 TO 17
THE WEATHER CHANNEL FROM 65 TO 27
CARTOON NETWORK FROM 76 TO 65
FIT TV FROM 78 TO 71
SHOP NBC FROM 71 TO 133* (DIGITAL ONLY)
GAMESHOW NETWORK FROM 79 TO 76 * (DIGITAL ONLY)
GREAT AMERICAN COUNTRY FROM 80 TO 78* (DIGITAL ONLY)
WEALTH HD FROM 556 T0 576

This channel will remain on the same dial position but will require a digital converter:

AMERICAN LIFE NETWORK 77* (DIGITAL ONLY)

*REQUIRES A DIGITAL CONVERTER
**REQUIRES HIGH DEFINITION CONVERTER

So from the looks of it they're reclaiming 76-80. That is 4 analogs total.

They are also moving Wealth TV HD. This definitely sounds like more HD on the way, probably FX HD since the SD version is on 56. It could also be more room for VOD and maybe phone.

17 was a hole left when WTBY was knocked out due to the DTV transition so it makes sense to fill it.

[Jed]

Originally Posted by n2rj

This is what they sent in my last cable bill and also what they are playing on channel 10 from time to time:


So from the looks of it they're reclaiming 76-80. That is 4 analogs total.

They are also moving Wealth TV HD. This definitely sounds like more HD on the way, probably FX HD since the SD version is on 56. It could also be more room for VOD and maybe phone.

17 was a hole left when WTBY was knocked out due to the DTV transition so it makes sense to fill it.

According to the information that you supplied I am positive that there is going to be more HD. FX HD will be one of them. I checked the HD lineup on the other two divisions and here are the channels that we don't have yet.
1: FX HD
2: ABC Family HD
3: Lifetime HD
4: Lifetime Movies HD
5: Weather Channel HD
6: MGM HD
7: Palladia HD

These are the channels I thought we were getting when we got Fuse HD.
1: IFC HD
2: We HD
3: AMC HD

These are the channels I hope we get.
1: Spike HD
2: Turner Classic Movies HD
3: Encore HD

Thanks for the info on windows live essentials. I may just wait until they release service pack 1 for windows 7 or if I'm mad enough and I can afford it I am going to switch to a Mac.

As for the HD locals I do know that the law states that they treat the HD locals the same as they treat the HD cable channels. They can't reduce the resolution and if they are encrypting all the HD cable channels then they can encrypt the HD locals too. Again this is dependent on any retransmission agreement that they have with the local broadcasters.

By law they do have to carry a certain amount of channels in analog. The number of analog channels is dependent on the bandwidth of their headends. This law will terminate three years after the analog shutdown which is 2012.

[n2rj]

Originally Posted by Jed

By law they do have to carry a certain amount of channels in analog. The number of analog channels is dependent on the bandwidth of their headends. This law will terminate three years after the analog shutdown which is 2012.

As far as the FCC is concerned, all they require is support for analog TVs.

The press release of the ruling says:

By statute, cable operators must make local broadcasters’ primary video and program-relatedmaterial viewable by all of their subscribers. The FCC’s ruling today allows cable operators tocomply with the viewability requirement by choosing to either: (1) carry the digital signal inanalog format, or (2) carry the signal only in digital format, provided that all subscribers have the
necessary equipment to view the broadcast content. The viewability requirements extend toFebruary 2012 with the Commission committing to review them during the last year of this period in light of the state of technology and the marketplace.

Basically some cable operators have chosen #2. This can be satisfied with free/cheap equipment such as DTAs with RF modulator output. Comcast and FiOS give DTAs to customers, and SECV also has DTAs. The equipment manufacturers got a waiver from the FCC to omit separable security (CableCARDs) and use light encryption which is 56 bit DES, basically, but some cable operators including SECV choose to carry the DTA channels in the clear.

That press release also says that:

While the item provides cable operators with flexibility, the FCC reaffirmed the requirement that cable systems must carry high definition (“HD”) broadcast signals in HD format and reaffirmed its current material degradation standard.

So local channels must be carried in HD, and "must carry" signals must be in the clear.

But there is absolutely no FCC requirement for analog to be carried anywhere, only support for analog TVs. Any system can go all digital if it so desires, as long as they provide equipment to support analog TV sets through RF modulator output. Comcast and Verizon FiOS have satisfied the requirement through DTAs.

Also any system with less than 552MHz bandwidth can request a waiver of analog must carry.

[n2rj]

err my math is off, lol looks like 5 analogs total, not 4...

Palladia HD will be nice to have.

FX makes sense given its ondemand offerings.

Weather HD is almost a certainty I hope.

I also hope that the website is updated if/when new HD is added as Zap2it uses the website to verify the lineup to update guide data for us media center folks.

I would like to see Comedy Central HD sooner or later.

[n2rj]

Looks like the channel changes may not have propagated to my cablecards while my motorola DCT is just fine. So it looks like I'll be calling SE Cable tomorrow.

[Jed]

Originally Posted by n2rj

As far as the FCC is concerned, all they require is support for analog TVs.

The press release of the ruling says:

By statute, cable operators must make local broadcasters’ primary video and program-relatedmaterial viewable by all of their subscribers. The FCC’s ruling today allows cable operators tocomply with the viewability requirement by choosing to either: (1) carry the digital signal inanalog format, or (2) carry the signal only in digital format, provided that all subscribers have the
necessary equipment to view the broadcast content. The viewability requirements extend toFebruary 2012 with the Commission committing to review them during the last year of this period in light of the state of technology and the marketplace.

Basically some cable operators have chosen #2. This can be satisfied with free/cheap equipment such as DTAs with RF modulator output. Comcast and FiOS give DTAs to customers, and SECV also has DTAs. The equipment manufacturers got a waiver from the FCC to omit separable security (CableCARDs) and use light encryption which is 56 bit DES, basically, but some cable operators including SECV choose to carry the DTA channels in the clear.

That press release also says that:

While the item provides cable operators with flexibility, the FCC reaffirmed the requirement that cable systems must carry high definition (“HD”) broadcast signals in HD format and reaffirmed its current material degradation standard.

So local channels must be carried in HD, and "must carry" signals must be in the clear.

But there is absolutely no FCC requirement for analog to be carried anywhere, only support for analog TVs. Any system can go all digital if it so desires, as long as they provide equipment to support analog TV sets through RF modulator output. Comcast and Verizon FiOS have satisfied the requirement through DTAs.

Also any system with less than 552MHz bandwidth can request a waiver of analog must carry.

Digital must carry (as amended) requires that large traditional cable operators must continue carrying the analog broadcast signals to their analog basic subscribers until february 17th 2012.
The law also states that the broadcast basic standard definition channels, analog and or digital, must be carried in the lowest basic cable subscription package.
If the cable operator decides to eliminate the analog basic lineup before time they must give at least a 30 day notice and supply a device that will convert the digital signals to analog at no additional cost to the analog customer. This law does not apply to the analog cable channels only local broadcast channels.
This excludes all digital operators like AT&T Uverse and Verizon Fios because they were all digital well before the analog shutdown.

As for the HD broadcast signals, if the local broadcasters main signal is HD then the cable company must carry it on their system with no signal degradation. There is no reference in the law that these channels must be offered "in the clear" and carried in the lowest cable subscription package or be offered for free.

The law also does not prevent any cable operator from scrambling their entire digital line up, including local broadcast channels, as long as they provide a STB to their analog subscribers at no additional cost. Any channel that is carried on a cable system that is not encrypted is done so at the discretion of the cable company.

If the local broadcaster waives "must carry" and goes for a retransmission agreement then "must carry" rules no longer apply. What happens to the carriage of that local broadcast channel will be negotiated in an retransmission agreement and if no agreement is reached then the cable operator must remove those channels from their system. These agreements are renewed every three years. There is nothing the FCC can do about this.

Right now there is only two broadcast stations in the Wilkes Barre DMA that are must carry, WNEP and WVIA, the rest are all retransmission agreemnts. As you know WABC, Disney Corp., waived must carry with cablevision and went with a retransmission agreement. I suspect when the current must carry agreement with SE Sparta expires Disney will go with a retransmission agreement. If they can't make an agreement the SE will have to take WABC off of their system.

Also in a related issue the FCC has never mandated the incorporation of a QAM decoder to be installed in any electronic device. They only mandated that any device capable of receiving a over the air dtv signal must have a 8-vsb decoder built into it, since the ATSC only set the standard for over the air digital television broadcasting.
The government does not set the standard for cable or satellite broadcasting since these a privately owned closed loop systems. They can use any type of modulation scheme that best suits their own needs. This also includes Verzon Fios and AT&T Uverse. They can use any type of modulation scheme that best suits their own needs.

Since the government did not, and can not, mandate QAM decoders to be built into tvs then how could they tell cable companies to provide local HDTV signals to be provided in the clear. If none of the manufactures supplied QAM decoders in their televisions, how would cable customers be able to view these channels in the clear with out the need of a HD STB or CableCard? If you or anybody can find the FCC mandate for QAM decoders please post a link because I couldn't find any.

FCC Links:
http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Ord...1/fcc01022.pdf
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...CC-05-27A1.pdf
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...CC-07-71A1.pdf
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-07-170A1.pdf
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...CC-08-86A1.pdf
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-08-193A1.pdf
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-08-224A1.pdf